Thursday, March 26, 2026

de Broglie and Bohm: photon creation from a radio transmitter – the problem of new particles

Let us consider a simple semiclassical process which creates photons. Let us have two charged particles (charge Q) whose mass M is macroscopic. We let the particles pass close to each other, so that they send a radio wave with many photons.


                                                                    screen
                                                                          |
                                                                          |
                                                                          |
                              )   )   )   )   )  radio wave
           ● ---->              
          M, Q                 <---- ●
                                         M, Q


The radio wave will hit a screen far away, and we can determine the positions of individual photons.

We can calculate the shape of the radio wave classically, but we cannot calculate where the individual photons will hit the screen.

The process creates new particles. Is there a way to extend the de Broglie-Bohm model to this case?

Could this work: the photons "pre-exist" in the electric fields of the charges Q, and are "freed" in the scattering process? Then all the particles could have a hidden variable already at the outset of the experiment, and would sail in a deterministic way to the screen – just as in the double-slit experiment.

The outgoing photons have an uncountable number of possible momenta p. Even if we would have pre-existing photons in the field of Q, how would these obtain the required p?


Time asymmetry in the process


The initial configuration of two charges Q flying at each other is quite different from the final configuration where we have the wave function for the two charges Q plus many alternative configurations of photons. The entropy of the system grows, and there are more degrees of freedom in the final configuration.

What if there would be no growth of entropy? Then the initial and the final configurations should look similar. Maybe the number of the degrees of freedom does not grow any more?

What about inverting the direction of time? Then the degrees of freedom will shrink as time progresses.


Absorption of a photon by a hydrogen atom


An excited hydrogen atom can decay and send an individual photon. The atom can absorb the required momentum from the reaction as it launches the photon.

What about the reverse process? A wave function of the photon contains many cases in which the photon does not hit the atom at all. The photon passes the atom.

Can we somehow add more "worlds" in such a way that the the graph of possible worlds would look more time-symmetric?

In the case of a hydrogen atom absorbing a single photon, the degrees of freedom only shrink in the case of the absorption. In other cases, there is no change. A "wave function collapse" only happens in one branch of many-worlds.


Ignore photons and only consider (charged) particles which existed at the outset?


The de Broglie-Bohm approach might work if we only had undestructible particles. Let us have N such particles. Let us have a foliation of spacetime such that spacelike folios define "simultaneousness". Then we could replace the N particles with one particle moving in a space with 3 N spatial dimensions.

But we have a problem already with electrons: pair production and pair annihilation. There are no undestructible particles.


Give up determinism?


Albert Einstein said that God does not play dice. That is, the "next", measured, state of a physical system should follow deterministically from the "previous" state.

Since simultaneousness is not well defined in relativity, we maybe should say this: what happens at some point in time and space is determined by the light cone which precedes that point.

Why not require determinism also in the "initial" states of the particles? Why can the initial states be random? Does God play dice, after all?

Why is the time dimension different from spatial dimensions?


Defining a "branch" in many-worlds


Let us have a human living in spacetime. Most of the massive elementary particles in his brain survive for a long time. They are not annihilated. However, quite a few particles are replaced with other similar particles over his lifetime. How could we define the "branch" in many-worlds, in which he is living?

The brain consists mainly of electrons and of nuclei. These particles are, in most cases, conserved over 100 years.

Then we can apply the de Broglie-Bohm model to these particles, and obtain well defined "branches" of their configurations.

We do not try to define a branch in a more general sense: we do not define, e.g., which photons on Mars belong to his branch.

What if two photons collide and form an electron and a positron, and the electron subsequently is used as a new building block in his brain?

Could we simply accept a model in which the branch of this brain chooses "by random" the initial state of the electron, as it is integrated into the brain?


A new problem: which paths of separate particles are in the "same" branch of many-worlds?


Suppose that two electrons are created in pair productions, and these two electrons are integrated to the brain of the observer.

We can use the de Broglie-Bohm model to describe the paths of the two electrons. But what paths are in the "same" branch of many-worlds?

This might be the solution: we simply choose one de Broglie-Bohm path for each electron. Then the combination of those paths is taken to be in the "same" branch as the brain of the observer.

When a new particle is included into the brain, the brain performs a "quantum jump" to include a certain path of that particle.


Do we need precisely defined branches at all?


Definition of a branch does not change anything in the wave function. In the de Broglie-Bohm model, the path of a particle does not affect the wave function in any way.

However, picking a certain path may define the "real world".

Let us have an observer. Maybe he lives in the "real world", and the copies of him in other branches are just "empty" wave functions?

This does not sound natural. Why should a conscious observer always exist in the "real world" and not in the "empty" branches?

In the de Broglie-Bohm model, the empty branches do physically exist, too. They are just different branches of the wave function.

Maybe it is necessary to drop the concept of the "real world" and treat all the branches equal. This means that Schrödinger's cat is both dead and alive at the same time.


Do we have a reasonable definition of a "branch" now? A robot


Instead of an observer we may consider a computer or a robot which possesses a camera and other sensors. It also has arms for manipulating external objects.

Above we suggested that we can use the de Broglie-Bohm model to define a "branch" of many-worlds, such that an instance of the robot lives in that branch.

The robot will encounter various random (or pseudorandom) quantum phenomena, and adjust the contents of its memory accordingly. Its camera may register random photons hitting its CCD sensor. 

The robot is an almost classical machine. It probably has relatively exactly definable states, and it in most cases functions deterministically.

Is the de Broglie-Bohm model an awkward way to define a branch in this case? Why not use a traditional Copenhagen model where the next state of the machine depends probabilistically on the previous state?

Assigning hidden variables is awkward?


The observing subject


Suppose that we have a reasonable way to define a branch for the robot. The computer in the robot, in that branch, will have a similar world-view as a human observer. It will remember its history. In almost every branch, the robot notices that physical processes in its history behaved according to the probabilistic rules of quantum mechanics.

According to Rene Descartes, cogito ergo sum. That is, I as an observing subject do exist.

My subject might be attached to one branch of a robot, my physical body, or it might "jump" from branch to branch. I would not notice anything if my subject jumps around the branches of many worlds.

It sounds strange if I alternate between different branches. I very much feel that I am in just one branch. This paradox is similar to another paradox about time. In what sense is now different from moments in the past or in the future?















***  WORK IN PROGRESS  ***

Thursday, March 19, 2026

de Broglie-Bohm model and the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics

In the Copenhagen interpretation, the wave function collapses. That destroys information and spoils the time symmetry of the laws of physics.

The many-worlds interpretation would be better. If my "subject", that is, I as an observer, is located in a certain "branch" of possible world histories, then no collapse is required. It just happens that I as a subject am in a certain branch. Then all the other laws of physics can be time-symmetric. If we further assume that the path of the subject through the tree is determined by a time-symmetric method, then we have a model which is completely time-symmetric, and does not destroy information. This would be desirable.


A freely readable .pdf file:


The de Broglie-Bohm model might provide us with a deterministic path for the observing subject, if we can extend it to cover the creation of new particles. The classic Bohm model is limited in that that it only covers a fixed number of particles, and uses the non-relativistic Schrödinger equation.


What constitutes a branch in the many-worlds interpretation?




The definition of a branch is a question which comes up regularly on the Physics Stack Exchange.

Suppose that a single photon hits a charge-coupled device (CCD), and starts a cascade which registers the location which the photon hit. A quantum mechanical object photon "decoheres" into a macroscopic object or into a macroscopic process.

Many people seem to believe that this explains what a branch means in many-worlds. It is a local process of decoherence. However, this definition of a branch is not exact, nor mathematical. If the photon happens to hit the CCD at a slightly (1 micrometer) different location, is that another branch? Do branches actually form a continuum?

The de Broglie-Bohm model might give us a mathematical definition of a branch: it simply is the time development for fixed initial hidden variable values.


We might define a branch with certain initial hidden variable values the "true state of the material world". Albert Einstein wrote that "God does not play dice". The branch would be deterministic, and Einstein would be happy. Does this approach lead to any contradictions?


de Broglie-Bohm as a flow of probability?




        |      |                        |
        |      |                                )        )
        |      |                        |
        |      |                                )        )
        |      |                        |

           --->
      incoming             double   diffracted wave
         wave                    slit       and interference


Let us think about the double-slit experiment. The incoming wave can be understood as a probability distribution, where the probability density is the squarw of the wave function value.

We may imagine a flow of probability, a flux, which takes a "probability parcel" forward from the double slit. That would give us a deterministic "path" for an incoming particle? As is well known, a de Broglie-Bohm particle will move along a strange, curvy path.

In a Feynman path integral, also fully unrealistic paths of a particle are calculated and added. If a de Broglie-Bohm path can be designated as the "true world", what about an unrealistic Feynman path?


Werner Heisenberg writes in his 1958 book Physics and philosophy that the de Broglie-Bohm model has problems handling stationary states. The flow of probability is zero in a typical stationary state, say, for a particle in a box. That suggests that a particle would remain in a fixed place.

A particle in a box, intuitively, has two flows of probability, to opposite directions. The sum of these flows is zero.

    
             wave packet
     <--    ~~~~~~~~~~
                       ~~~~~~~~~~    -->
                       wave packet


Let us have a very long wave packet which describes a single particle. We use a beam splitter to divide the packet into two wave packets and let the packets collide so that they travel to opposite directions.

The flow of probability in the overlapping part of the two packets is zero. But the natural many-worlds interpretation for the process is that a single particle is moving either to the left or to the right in the diagram? 

No. In the many-worlds interpretation, "branching" means a process where the waves for various alternatives will not interfere much. The branching has not happened yet when the wave packets overlap.


Do other branches "exist"?


If we designate one de Broglie-Bohm branch as the "true world", the other branches still exist, in the sense that they interfere with the true world, and affect the probabilities how the true world develops in time. This is quite different from, say, newtonian mechanics.

Certain people have criticized the fact that all branches exist, also those that are not the "true world". But we cannot help it: if we prune some branches, we lose information, and the model no longer corresponds to quantum mechanics.


Generalizing to relativistic wave functions and creation and destruction of particles: quantum field theory


The de Broglie-Bohm model is based on the Schrödinger equation, which is nonrelativistic. A generalization to relativistic particle physics requires that we develop a de Broglie-Bohm model for quantum field theory.

Quantum field theory, in its present form, contains dubious methods like regularization and renormalization. It is unlikely that we can develop a satisfactory deterministic model for quantum field theory unless we can remove regularization and renormalization. In fact, a de Broglie-Bohm model might help us to solve the problems.


Hrvoje Nikolić (2009) describes a model where particles can be created and destroyed.














Nikolić assumes that a particle can have a finite lifetime. In the diagram, x⁰ is the time coordinate. "Virtual particles" pop up and disappear in a very short time. They are denoted with dots.

For the model to be deterministic, the position of those dots, (x⁰, x¹) should depend on the initial conditions (data) at some earlier time. Does it?

We can, of course, formally define that the locations of the dots are decided in the initial data, but that looks ugly.


Flow of probability when new particles are created


                        ~~~~~~~~~~~  real photon
                      /
       e- ----------------------------------
                           |
                           | virtual photon
       e- ----------------------------------


Let us consider a collision of two electrons. Photons and pairs can be created. We can draw Feynman diagrams and calculate the probability of each outcome. Above is a diagram for bremsstrahlung.

In the de Broglie-Bohm model of the double-slit experiment, there is a beautiful way to define the "path" of the particle, along the flow of probability in the Schrödinger equation. The path is meandering, but it is defined in a beautiful way.

But for a Feynman diagram, there is no such beautiful way. The real photon which appears above "breaks" the system into more degrees of freedom. If we have a probability flow in 6 spatial dimensions, there is no obvious way to make it to branch into a flow in 9 dimensions. What would decide the path for an arbitrary initial configuration of two electrons? How does the path suddenly branch to more dimensions?

In our blog we have several times written about the problem of "breaking" into more degrees of freedom. This seems to be associated with regularization and renormalization problems for Feynman diagrams.

Let us assign an arbitrary (irrational) real number r for the initial two electrons. We could design an ad hoc way to reproduce the correct Feynman probability distribution from the infinite number of decimals in r, and obtain a deterministic model. But that would be a very ugly solution.


Schrödinger's cat


The de Broglie-Bohm model for the Schrödinger equation solves a paradox associated with Schrödinger's cat, for the treatment with the Schrödinger equation.

The cat always is either dead or alive, in the "true world" determined by the hidden variables. Opening the box does not change anything. The cat does not suddenly "collapse" into either state.

Let us assume that we find the cat alive.

What remains of the paradox is the "empty" branch in which the cat is dead. The branch does exist in the de Broglie-Bohm model, though that branch is not "occupied" by the values of the hidden variables.

Schrödinger's cat involves a radioactive decay process which decides if the poison is released inside the box. Such a decay must be treated in quantum field theory, since new particles are created. And the de Broglie-Bohm model has no beautiful extension there. Thus, the paradox remains.


Conclusions


The de Broglie-Bohm model is a beautiful way to introduce determinism into the Schrödinger equation. We can define in a beautiful way what is a branch in the many-worlds interpretation. We avoid the "measurement problem" and many paradoxes in quantum mechanics.

But extending the de Broglie-Bohm model into quantum field theory depends on if we can find a beautiful model quantum field theory. Presumably, divergences, regularization, and renormalization should be removed. The problem of breaking into more degrees freedom may be a mathematical problem. Can we solve it?